Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements
Cataclysm will change a couple of things to the raiding system apparently. "Too long didn't read" version:

* 10-Man and 25-Man raids will share the same lockout.
* 10-Man and 25-Man raids difficulty will be as close as possible to each other.
* 10-Man and 25-Man raids will drop the exact same loot, but 25-man will drop a higher quantity of items.
* Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel
* For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid.

Quote from: Nethaera (Source)
We're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!

The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you’d need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.

We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.

Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards

* 10 and 25-player (Normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
* 10 and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.


We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.

We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.

We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we’re likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.

In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.

We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.

We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!

death to guilds

everybody i know is quitting

25 man still yields more pieces of loot per person than 10 mans.

No it doesn't.

This post has been edited by MoS. on Mon - Apr 26 2010 - 14:38:06

25 man progression guilds make 10s mandatory for the first 2 weeks of progression, reform as 25 for HM progression.

by the way, i was thinking a little bit about 10 mans last night while i couldnt sleep

i think it would be so much easier to balance if they were 12-mans instead

having 12 people would force classes to double up, so you wouldnt feel stupid bringing 2 warlocks instead of 1 warlock/1 mage in a group of the other 8 classes, and would provide more similar composition to 25 mans

when you think about the current balanced 10 man (2 tanks, 2-3 heals, 5-6 dps), its radically different from the 25 man setup (2-3 tanks, 5-6 healers, 16-18 dps)

if 12 mans were (2 tanks, 3 heals, 9 dps) it would be a 50% increase in the amount of dps in your group, much more room for having not a perfect composition, but those extra slots would also have people trying to squeeze every 25 man raid buff into a 10 man group

any way you try to balance 10 man vs 25 man though, the people with good 10 man compositions will always out perform the same people playing a substandard comp, they cant fully homogenize, unless they restrict total buffs in 25 man or give everything a scroll for 10 man

im pretty sure it would, as well as 25 having more variety for people, 10 man you will still end up with plate healing gear drop when you have no paladin, etc, as well as she mentions more badges from 25 man

but who knows, maybe they make the top tier badges drop out of something stupid like heroics or daily quests

WORLD OF SOCIALISMCRAFT, ALL MY FRIENDS ARE QUITTING, LOL BLIZZARD YOU ARE GONNA BANKRUPT

wow sucks, shutt'r down

bring back class restricted gear and dont let a classes items drop unless that class is present
then we can a more efficient gearing up period, thus making it twice as easy to gear up

upon entering a raid just let me open the chest and take my loot, the boss fight is only if you "want the challenge"

this is why you are wrong joe
that doesnt solve the problem, that is a step in the other direction
with different classes having a different number of specs to gear for, and the homogenization of stats, separating things by class would be more harm than its worth
feral druids == rogues
mages == warlocks == shadow priests
(warrior dps == death knight dps) = ret dps
hunter dps = enhancement shaman (hit <-> expertise)
elemental/resto shaman gear have a little overlap (hit vs regen)
resto/balance druid gear have a little overlap (hit vs regen)
warrior tank == death knight tank == paladin tank

They are trying to balance the classes so that certain classes/skills will bring more buffs for 10 mans, etc. Bad explanation, but more buffs, easier to have in 10 man.

Because Warrior gear dropping 4 weeks in a row is useful opposed to 3 plate classes potentially being able to roll on this item.

i hope the post after the one you quoted leads you to a better understanding of my post

itt: wow talk is somehow always more serious than any other internet subject

remove gear, /played time is public and is renamed to gearscore, is displayed below your guild tag, all classes play dance dance revolution to tank, heal, or dps

thats why i love it

can this shit be released all ready

i dont want to wait another 8 months

It's a multibillion dollar industry in and of itself, with lots of depth, it deserves some thoughtful discussion. I think you've become to interested in that gibberish shit chat in Member's Lounge.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

i want to log in and tell it i want dps 25 man icc, and within 5 minutes the raid is full of competent people

I want a Shadowmourne brahski.

at least you still have your ability to come up with horribly inaccurate assumptions

Go raid in RuneScape.

people i dont have to pretend to be friends with, people i basically dont even have to see once raid is over

Okay, I should have ended it with the first sentence, happy now you emo bitch?

is that supposed to be a zinger?

Raid disbands after the 1st trash wipe, repeat x3 before everyone quits.

same ol nick

No not really, not sure how RuneScape works since you play it 100% private with nobody else but Ventrilo mates. No base to compare against.

You expected different?

this thread needs more WOW TALK

women

we should be doing daily dungeons through the group finder on our level 60s

nick, you seem to forget that i still openly say wow is the best game ive ever played

you only played 10% of wow joe, your opinion means nothing until you dabble into other classes

#1 Cristvicky
#2 Aliissa
#3 Missabby (based upon 3 years ago)
#4 ????

I know, I just want you to play it again, not trying to make a RuneScape vs WoW bashing or anything m8.

im glad i can play wow now and still have fun without being addicted or wanting to play it when im not

i was calling you and joe women, stop chatting each other up and discuss wow

same, i want joe to be able to play like this

I'm hoping that if I move soon, I can get a new PC, and perhaps at least join a top dog guild for Cataclysm progression. I want server first achievements next expansion or else I will really quit.

IE - I have no desire to be a casual fag. Otherwise, I'd be forced to move to BG9 and l2pvp. PvP is fun.

Joe is a big game achievement hunter like myself.

This stuff is way too time consuming, going to work on the Insane/Exalted titles soon. Then I can work on my Shaman's t6 RP set.

im kinda thinking about doing the same on priest

bump