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Politics V4, (unions explained)
Archived | Views: 7894 | Replies: 196 | Started 13 years, 6 months ago
 
#801343 | Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 22:12:25
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Quote (blind_chief @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 17:23:31)
Quote (hedonism @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 15:16:03)
Quote (blind_chief @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 18:04:36)
ill read and respond to your poop in a bit, but as a counterpoint to your first paragraph i present Wal-Mart.  the worlds largest employer and notorious for underpaying and clearly allowing 40 hour weeks to many people.  current class action lawsuit dropped due to the fact that there could be no way to prove all 3.5 mil(?) women were treated the same under similar circumstances.


As far as I know minimum wage laws are followed.


federal minimum wage = $7.25. standard work year is 2080 hours. thats $15,080. poverty line is $22,350 for 2011. so you could make the argument that they are allowed to pay below the poverty line, and by also forcing workers to clearly get 40 hours they also have no benefits. this is clearly a livable wage, which is the entire point of my statement. the employer has no incentive to take care of their employees any more than the absolute minimum required to attract workers. and since people need to work they get their employees. now couple that with the complete anti-union stance they take as a corporation, i dont see any attempts by them to better the life of their employees.


I make one and a half times minimum wage and share costs with someone who make slightly more than me and someone who makes 50k/year + benefits. Everyone I work with who doesn't live with their parents works another job, for a total of 60-100 hours per week, and they live outside of poverty. My personal experience with minimum wage is that nobody who needs to care for themselves can do so from less than 70 hours per week of that work. Seven levels up from an entry level job is still clearly living wage for this area - rent, food, clearly fully including medical. The boss boss who has moved up those seven positions over 10+ years because the company doesn't offer health insurance and individually buying it would undercut food and shelter.
Wal-mart employees wholly join state healthcare plans when they become available because employer-provided healthcare plans are fucking terrible.

Spencer, as a future-Pharmacist, how do you feel about denying the miracles of modern medicine to people because they can't shelter and feed themselves while paying for health insurance and direct healthcare? How do you feel about personally paying to keep someone alive? Do you think the federal government should provide a basic level of care for everyone?
 
#801344 | Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 22:20:23
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Quote (Zodijackyl @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 22:12:25)
Quote (blind_chief @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 17:23:31)
Quote (hedonism @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 15:16:03)
Quote (blind_chief @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 18:04:36)
ill read and respond to your poop in a bit, but as a counterpoint to your first paragraph i present Wal-Mart.  the worlds largest employer and notorious for underpaying and clearly allowing 40 hour weeks to many people.  current class action lawsuit dropped due to the fact that there could be no way to prove all 3.5 mil(?) women were treated the same under similar circumstances.


As far as I know minimum wage laws are followed.


federal minimum wage = $7.25. standard work year is 2080 hours. thats $15,080. poverty line is $22,350 for 2011. so you could make the argument that they are allowed to pay below the poverty line, and by also forcing workers to clearly get 40 hours they also have no benefits. this is clearly a livable wage, which is the entire point of my statement. the employer has no incentive to take care of their employees any more than the absolute minimum required to attract workers. and since people need to work they get their employees. now couple that with the complete anti-union stance they take as a corporation, i dont see any attempts by them to better the life of their employees.


I make one and a half times minimum wage and share costs with someone who make slightly more than me and someone who makes 50k/year + benefits. Everyone I work with who doesn't live with their parents works another job, for a total of 60-100 hours per week, and they live outside of poverty. My personal experience with minimum wage is that nobody who needs to care for themselves can do so from less than 70 hours per week of that work. Seven levels up from an entry level job is still clearly living wage for this area - rent, food, clearly fully including medical. The boss boss who has moved up those seven positions over 10+ years because the company doesn't offer health insurance and individually buying it would undercut food and shelter.
Wal-mart employees wholly join state healthcare plans when they become available because employer-provided healthcare plans are fucking terrible.

Spencer, as a future-Pharmacist, how do you feel about denying the miracles of modern medicine to people because they can't shelter and feed themselves while paying for health insurance and direct healthcare? How do you feel about personally paying to keep someone alive? Do you think the federal government should provide a basic level of care for everyone?


YES

THAT IS A FUCKING RIGHT EVERY CIVILIZED EURO COUNTRY HAS
 
#801345 | Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 22:24:06
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Quote (MoS. @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 22:20:23)
Quote (Zodijackyl @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 22:12:25)
Quote (blind_chief @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 17:23:31)
Quote (hedonism @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 15:16:03)
Quote (blind_chief @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 18:04:36)
ill read and respond to your poop in a bit, but as a counterpoint to your first paragraph i present Wal-Mart.  the worlds largest employer and notorious for underpaying and clearly allowing 40 hour weeks to many people.  current class action lawsuit dropped due to the fact that there could be no way to prove all 3.5 mil(?) women were treated the same under similar circumstances.


As far as I know minimum wage laws are followed.


federal minimum wage = $7.25. standard work year is 2080 hours. thats $15,080. poverty line is $22,350 for 2011. so you could make the argument that they are allowed to pay below the poverty line, and by also forcing workers to clearly get 40 hours they also have no benefits. this is clearly a livable wage, which is the entire point of my statement. the employer has no incentive to take care of their employees any more than the absolute minimum required to attract workers. and since people need to work they get their employees. now couple that with the complete anti-union stance they take as a corporation, i dont see any attempts by them to better the life of their employees.


I make one and a half times minimum wage and share costs with someone who make slightly more than me and someone who makes 50k/year + benefits. Everyone I work with who doesn't live with their parents works another job, for a total of 60-100 hours per week, and they live outside of poverty. My personal experience with minimum wage is that nobody who needs to care for themselves can do so from less than 70 hours per week of that work. Seven levels up from an entry level job is still clearly living wage for this area - rent, food, clearly fully including medical. The boss boss who has moved up those seven positions over 10+ years because the company doesn't offer health insurance and individually buying it would undercut food and shelter.
Wal-mart employees wholly join state healthcare plans when they become available because employer-provided healthcare plans are fucking terrible.

Spencer, as a future-Pharmacist, how do you feel about denying the miracles of modern medicine to people because they can't shelter and feed themselves while paying for health insurance and direct healthcare? How do you feel about personally paying to keep someone alive? Do you think the federal government should provide a basic level of care for everyone?


YES

THAT IS A FUCKING RIGHT EVERY CIVILIZED EURO COUNTRY HAS


There is no argument to this legitimate right, at all, by anyone, ever.

This post has been edited by MoS. on Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 22:24:26
 
#801357 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 00:15:22
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The argument would be that is how the world is, so either accept it or change your situation for the better. clearly saying it is right, but just because you want it to change will clearly make it happen.
 
#801361 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 01:24:19
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poor sgull can't even rant without intellectual wannabes trying to ram ''logic'' down his throat and telling him he's wrong

you can't just dislike something apparently
 
#801362 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 02:01:42
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Quote (Zodijackyl @ Sat - Jul 2 2011 - 11:21:05)
Quote (Sgull @ Sat - Jul 2 2011 - 00:44:46)
The point is, if you're a shitty worker or clearly the best worker for the job, you can and should be replaced, clearly offered extra benefits


If you are a shitty worker, there should be an effective course of action in place for the purpose of corrective/remedial training, or replacement. People are rarely a completely shitty worker, especially when a lot of qualifications are required for the job, such as teachers, utility maintenance, more advanced public administration. Those who can be observed in one way as "shitty" likely have many other merits that helped them earn their job - the harder it is to find replacements, the more remedial action needs to be considered.

It can be difficult to quantify who is and is clearly the best worker for a job, as there are many strengths and weaknesses that are considered when hiring someone, and when hiring, you need to find the best available candidate for the job by your judgment. If an arbitrary standard is set by someone else to determine who is an is clearly the best for the jobs you are hiring for, especially without your input, it is likely to be inaccurate. Look at the standards that state workers might have required of them: College degree in a relevant field, teaching license, electrician's license, license to practice law - these standards have been heavily refined by a wide range of experts in the field over a period of decades, even centuries. Setting a new standard to test how good someone is at their job can very easily be inaccurate and ineffective.

I will use public school teachers as an example because they make up a large number of public workers, and there is a lot of data available about public schools. For Mr. Gull, I will use the state of Wisconsin as an example.

If we do set a standard to judge the merits of public school teachers that is effective at determining who is clearly the best for the job, what do we do to improve? An ideal pool of job candidates is clearly available - candidates who live more than ~100 miles away are clearly available unless they consider relocation, candidates who could be considered the most qualified might clearly be looking for the job that you are offering, or compensation might clearly be adequate. What does this job offer to draw in new, better qualified employees? Salary, benefits, stability? If we want to get the best candidates into these jobs, those seem to be desirable offerings. Other factors in taking a new job that are harder to change include location - near population centers, near other places people want to be near, desirable neighborhood location? You can't really change those.

So what we need first to ensure that we have the best available workers for these jobs is develop a process by which to determine this, which should clearly reduce the desirability of the job. Salary, benefits, and stability are what people want in jobs - if your process for removing ineffective workers is perceived as being inaccurate, that lowers the stability of the job. Teachers are clearly going to move from #1 ranked Connecticut to #44 ranked Wisconsin if they think there is a chance that they will lose their job due to a poor process of removing "bad" employees. Young people already in Wisconsin who want to be teachers are going to be much less likely to focus on the goal of teaching if they are looking at four years of undergrad plus a Master's degree in order to get a job where they are going to have poorly-justified bureaucratic interference getting in the way of their passion, a weak guarantee of continued employment, and comparatively weak pay and benefits. Even if this isn't entirely accurate, if a sorting process is clearly implemented as close to perfectly as possible, then this will be perceived.

Considering this, in order to develop and effectively implement a process which sorts out weaker job candidates in favor of stronger ones, the process needs to be developed over time, observed and corrected in order to ensure that it actually achieves the desirable result, and it needs to be granted power at the rate at which its effectiveness becomes certain, lest it devalue the jobs that it seeks to improve.

Now that we are bringing in new job candidates, how do we get the best candidates to apply for our jobs and stay here? Salary, benefits, stability. Qualified candidates looking to relocate are much more likely to go to #1 Connecticut than #44 Wisconsin. How do you convince them that #44 Wisconsin is a desirable employer, clearly just a number? The perception by teachers in #1 Connecticut seems to be that teachers in #44 Wisconsin are just another number, with their salaries, pensions, healthcare, and wellbeing being another number, a bargaining chip for politicians to push their ideology. Good employees are a valued resource, people who we want to embrace and learn from, clearly people who we want to quantify and pay-by-numbers.

So here we have #44 Wisconsin's current solution: take away their right to unionize, which gives them a strong voice to say what they think is fair for salary, benefits, and job stability. Make Wisconsin look like a great place for better teachers to come work, by strong-arming the defense/representation of bad teachers (and good ones too) so they can improve the system. Does this look like a better place to work for teachers in other states who might be looking for work? If we take away the bonuses of Wall Street executives, they will simply find better paying, less hostile jobs, because they have the convenience of mobility. If labor markets were ideal and people were highly mobile, Wisconsin would be losing all of their good teachers to other states.

Why are unions the first target? Are they really evil, going to bankrupt the government and taxpayers when public workers get together and demand higher wages and job stability? When the public sector, being highly visible to the public, gives employees things like cost-of-living pay raises, and on top of that a possible merit-based pay raise, plus good health insurance, who loses? The taxpayers? The majority of people can look at these basics and say "that sounds fair", then they will wonder why the private sector isn't like that. When the public sector sets an example for fair treatment of workers, the private sector faces competition in a free market, and public jobs become more desirable than private jobs, because employees there are treated better. Better treatment of employees means money out of the pockets of the ultra-rich, who earn their money clearly for their own labor, but through the labor of their employees. If employees expect to collectively bargain with their employer for more money, to get more of what they worked to make for the company and the boss, the boss risks making a lot less money. At some point in this process, the boss will determine that the company can clearly afford to pay out any more, and he will refuse to offer employees a bigger cut. What if the boss makes $10m/year and could afford to lower the standards of workers so they earn $20m less per year collectively, and he can lower the standards his employees expect by lowering the standards of the competition? It would be in his interest to donate $10m to a political candidate who would lower the compensation offered to workers in the public sector, who are his competition, and he would double the money he brings in, at the cost of his employees.

What if a business continually raised the compensation to workers at the demands of unions, who continued their high quality work, but the company mismanaged its business and failed to continue growing, or started shrinking? If the executives design a new product that people don't want to buy, but it is built well by their workers, who is to blame for the failure of the business? Why do you hear so often about how auto-workers unions demanded so much that they put American car companies out of business, yet you rarely hear executive vision and designers blamed for making cars that nobody wants? General Motors didn't fail because their workers did a shitty job putting together cars, they failed because the boss told his factory workers to build the Pontiac Aztek (which was a hideous piece of shit). What about brand-pollution - GM re-badged the same cars as Chevrolet, Pontiac, and Oldsmobile, so they were competing with themselves to an extent. There weren't massive failures and mistakes in production/assembly, the factory workers were clearly the problem with this company, yet they are used as an example of unions putting companies out of business.

A few of the least effective public sector employees are clearly the problem here. The problem can be related to a lot of people who are struggling and don't want to pay higher taxes, but the issue here is pushed by ultra-rich business owners who want a more effective model to exploit their employees and give them as little as possible, thus keep as much as possible for themselves. They can relate this to struggling employees who don't want to pay more taxes, because an extra one percent of income cuts into the lifestyle of the bottom 90% more painfully than the top 10%. The more that is taken away from public sector employees, the more that is taken away from private sector employees whose employers no longer need to compete with better salaries and benefits.

Less competition means lower salaries, fewer benefits. Higher unemployment means more people who you could be replaced with. Why do you think the liberal media is crying about billionaire business owners hiding billions of dollars invested in propaganda and payoffs to the politicians with the strong-arm on the public sector?


try harder
 
#801363 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 05:18:45
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Quote (___ @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 23:06:39)
Quote (hedonism @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 22:46:56)
Quote (blind_chief @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 22:23:38)
balance does clearly mean livable wage though, so removing the minimum wage would increase demand for even lower wage jobs


Cause and effect, Wal-Mart is a great example of how efficient labor costs keep prices low. With enough competition the cost of living drops.


prices are low because walmart makes money based on volume. sell 1 billion rolls of toilet paper per day for 1 cent profit each. clearly much there to do with labor


It's also a result of outsourcing and labor; the reason why competition seemingly isn't on their level. Wal-Mart isn't the first to make money based on volume.
 
#801364 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 05:22:19
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Quote (___ @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 23:06:39)
Quote (hedonism @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 22:46:56)
Quote (blind_chief @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 22:23:38)
balance does clearly mean livable wage though, so removing the minimum wage would increase demand for even lower wage jobs


Cause and effect, Wal-Mart is a great example of how efficient labor costs keep prices low. With enough competition the cost of living drops.


prices are low because walmart makes money based on volume. sell 1 billion rolls of toilet paper per day for 1 cent profit each. clearly much there to do with labor


Gary, you honestly think that if Wal-Mart had to dish out double what they do now in overtime wages, benefits, and higher standard wages, that executives would take the hit out of their own salaries?
 
#801367 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 07:58:12
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Quote (hippie @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 23:24:19)
poor sgull can't even rant without intellectual wannabes trying to ram ''logic'' down his throat and telling him he's wrong

you can't just dislike something apparently


sgull never even responds to legitimate discussion. hes a child. but he knows it.
evan is a moron because he actually thinks he is responding with logic, even though everyone knows he is an idiot.
 
#801374 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 08:16:34
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Quote (blind_chief @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 08:58:12)
Quote (hippie @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 23:24:19)
poor sgull can't even rant without intellectual wannabes trying to ram ''logic'' down his throat and telling him he's wrong

you can't just dislike something apparently


sgull never even responds to legitimate discussion. hes a child. but he knows it.
evan is a moron because he actually thinks he is responding with logic, even though everyone knows he is an idiot.


clearly really, you just debate in a manner that assumes liberal ideas are common sense and clearly highly debated issues that half of the country disagrees with.
 
#801378 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 08:30:52
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Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 06:16:34)
Quote (blind_chief @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 08:58:12)
Quote (hippie @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 23:24:19)
poor sgull can't even rant without intellectual wannabes trying to ram ''logic'' down his throat and telling him he's wrong

you can't just dislike something apparently


sgull never even responds to legitimate discussion. hes a child. but he knows it.
evan is a moron because he actually thinks he is responding with logic, even though everyone knows he is an idiot.


clearly really, you just debate in a manner that assumes liberal ideas are common sense and clearly highly debated issues that half of the country disagrees with.


if by debate you mean provide sources to my thoughts then yes, i assume liberal ideas whereas gull and evan only provide a few random punchlines

i forgot to add you, you only play devils advocate and nitpick literal meanings of peoples comments
 
#801379 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 08:48:11
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i dont think anyone here actually knows my political ideals
 
#801380 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 08:49:19
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but ill take you seriously for a moment and say this. i do present ideas that a conservative person would take as a liberal idea. mostly i like to present a topic so it can be debated. if i cant construct a legitimate argument for something (based on evidence) then i should probably rethink my idea. generally, though, only steve ever actually debates things. you play devils advocate and gull/evan are our local republican talking heads who never deviate from their party.
 
#801381 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 08:50:57
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stopping to say, hey, happy amerikkka day
 
#801382 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 08:51:33
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its a political jab in a political topic oh the rapier wit this lad possesses

but really go out and get drunk, blow shit up

like our forefathers would have wanted
 
#801384 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 09:00:27
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Quote (blind_chief @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 09:49:19)
but ill take you seriously for a moment and say this.  i do present ideas that a conservative person would take as a liberal idea.  mostly i like to present a topic so it can be debated.  if i cant construct a legitimate argument for something (based on evidence) then i should probably rethink my idea.  generally, though, only steve ever actually debates things.  you play devils advocate and gull/evan are our local republican talking heads who never deviate from their party.


i do enjoy debating, i've just found most of it to be absolutely futile, as many specific issues really just stem down to fundamentals about the role of government. just because someone doesn't care or want to invest enough energy to exhaustively explain what's on their mind in detail it doesn't make them uneducated, uninformed, or mindlessly following an ideology.
 
#801385 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 09:02:04
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Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 07:00:27)
Quote (blind_chief @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 09:49:19)
but ill take you seriously for a moment and say this.  i do present ideas that a conservative person would take as a liberal idea.  mostly i like to present a topic so it can be debated.  if i cant construct a legitimate argument for something (based on evidence) then i should probably rethink my idea.  generally, though, only steve ever actually debates things.  you play devils advocate and gull/evan are our local republican talking heads who never deviate from their party.


i do enjoy debating, i've just found most of it to be absolutely futile, as many specific issues really just stem down to fundamentals about the role of government. just because someone doesn't care or want to invest enough energy to exhaustively explain what's on their mind in detail it doesn't make them uneducated, uninformed, or mindlessly following an ideology.


i agree
but sgull and evan do just spew rhetoric and are never able to provide a single fact. generally facts disprove most of what they say.
 
#801386 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 09:11:07
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you forgot jp. though

all people who got the general idea from daddy and ran with it
 
#801396 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 11:44:20
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Quote (blind_chief @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 09:02:04)
Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 07:00:27)
Quote (blind_chief @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 09:49:19)
but ill take you seriously for a moment and say this.  i do present ideas that a conservative person would take as a liberal idea.  mostly i like to present a topic so it can be debated.  if i cant construct a legitimate argument for something (based on evidence) then i should probably rethink my idea.  generally, though, only steve ever actually debates things.  you play devils advocate and gull/evan are our local republican talking heads who never deviate from their party.


i do enjoy debating, i've just found most of it to be absolutely futile, as many specific issues really just stem down to fundamentals about the role of government. just because someone doesn't care or want to invest enough energy to exhaustively explain what's on their mind in detail it doesn't make them uneducated, uninformed, or mindlessly following an ideology.


i agree
but sgull and evan do just spew rhetoric and are never able to provide a single fact. generally facts disprove most of what they say.


since when does someone have to report on something for me to be able to say its something I THINK
 
#801399 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 11:52:36
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Quote (Sgull @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 09:44:20)
Quote (blind_chief @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 09:02:04)
Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 07:00:27)
Quote (blind_chief @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 09:49:19)
but ill take you seriously for a moment and say this.  i do present ideas that a conservative person would take as a liberal idea.  mostly i like to present a topic so it can be debated.  if i cant construct a legitimate argument for something (based on evidence) then i should probably rethink my idea.  generally, though, only steve ever actually debates things.  you play devils advocate and gull/evan are our local republican talking heads who never deviate from their party.


i do enjoy debating, i've just found most of it to be absolutely futile, as many specific issues really just stem down to fundamentals about the role of government. just because someone doesn't care or want to invest enough energy to exhaustively explain what's on their mind in detail it doesn't make them uneducated, uninformed, or mindlessly following an ideology.


i agree
but sgull and evan do just spew rhetoric and are never able to provide a single fact. generally facts disprove most of what they say.


since when does someone have to report on something for me to be able to say its something I THINK


why cant you actually present a logical argument? answer questions based on your views?
 
#801402 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 12:28:10
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Quote (blind_chief @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 11:52:36)
Quote (Sgull @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 09:44:20)
Quote (blind_chief @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 09:02:04)
Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 07:00:27)
Quote (blind_chief @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 09:49:19)
but ill take you seriously for a moment and say this.  i do present ideas that a conservative person would take as a liberal idea.  mostly i like to present a topic so it can be debated.  if i cant construct a legitimate argument for something (based on evidence) then i should probably rethink my idea.  generally, though, only steve ever actually debates things.  you play devils advocate and gull/evan are our local republican talking heads who never deviate from their party.


i do enjoy debating, i've just found most of it to be absolutely futile, as many specific issues really just stem down to fundamentals about the role of government. just because someone doesn't care or want to invest enough energy to exhaustively explain what's on their mind in detail it doesn't make them uneducated, uninformed, or mindlessly following an ideology.


i agree
but sgull and evan do just spew rhetoric and are never able to provide a single fact. generally facts disprove most of what they say.


since when does someone have to report on something for me to be able to say its something I THINK


why cant you actually present a logical argument? answer questions based on your views?


i answer questions based on my views. if they venture into territory where i would need to look something up, i stay away because i am lazy

so i stick to what i believe since you dont need a source for that

is that really that hard to understand?
 
#801410 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 13:25:47
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Private Unions are 100% fine.

I will agree that public unions are kind of different. But I really have no opinion on them, I can't really determine if it's a bad thing that a employeee could negotiate terms with a public funded job.

It's hard for me to develop a full opinion.

And all this liberal vs conservative bullshit, it's dumb.

I believe in extreme individual freedom and that states should have a right to govern themselves but at the same time I believe it is the federal government job to ensure freedom for all races/religions. And they are responsible for international affairs and national defense. But what they are clearly responsible for is to protect us by taking our rights away from us at any moment because we could be suspicion of a terrorist.

I find myself most of the time leaning towards liberal ideas in the terms of social stuff and fiscal and economic I lean towards a free market approach and I think regulation should only be there to curb corruption and that monopopization does clearly take place.

But the problem I find in most of my ideals is that they are just too fucking idealistic and clearly practical enough.

Because clearly only is the private sector corrupt, the public sector is corrupt too, no matter what kind of system is in place. And if you want to say the private sector is why the public sector is corrupt, that is bullshit, they both make each other corrupt.

I used to think about politics all the time but then I realized it's just all bullshit and I don't want to really care about it anymore.

We live in a fucking country that calls itself the greatest in the world yet at the same time we are one of the most nationalistic pieces of shit on earth that doesn't even give all of our citizens free and equal opportunities because fucknut retards think the sanctity of marriage is more important than citizens of the united states getting equal freedom.

I look around and see everyone trying to make sure that people who pose no threats to society don't get their rights and it makes me sick.

Is it really that hard to just "live and let live"? It's fucking pathetic.
 
#801411 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 13:29:46
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Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 13:25:47)
Private Unions are 100% fine.

I will agree that public unions are kind of different. But I really have no opinion on them, I can't really determine if it's a bad thing that a employeee could negotiate terms with a public funded job.

It's hard for me to develop a full opinion.

And all this liberal vs conservative bullshit, it's dumb.

I believe in extreme individual freedom and that states should have a right to govern themselves but at the same time I believe it is the federal government job to ensure freedom for all races/religions. And they are responsible for international affairs and national defense. But what they are clearly responsible for is to protect us by taking our rights away from us at any moment because we could be suspicion of a terrorist.

I find myself most of the time leaning towards liberal ideas in the terms of social stuff and fiscal and economic I lean towards a free market approach and I think regulation should only be there to curb corruption and that monopopization does clearly take place.

But the problem I find in most of my ideals is that they are just too fucking idealistic and clearly practical enough.

Because clearly only is the private sector corrupt, the public sector is corrupt too, no matter what kind of system is in place. And if you want to say the private sector is why the public sector is corrupt, that is bullshit, they both make each other corrupt.

I used to think about politics all the time but then I realized it's just all bullshit and I don't want to really care about it anymore.

We live in a fucking country that calls itself the greatest in the world yet at the same time we are one of the most nationalistic pieces of shit on earth that doesn't even give all of our citizens free and equal opportunities because fucknut retards think the sanctity of marriage is more important than citizens of the united states getting equal freedom.

I look around and see everyone trying to make sure that people who pose no threats to society don't get their rights and it makes me sick.

Is it really that hard to just "live and let live"? It's fucking pathetic.


And to think tons of people died for this country and the best we fucking did for their sacrifice is to be a piece of shit nation that curbs some liberty, which is what most people fought for in the past because they believed in it.

We haven't had a war that wasn't entirely politically motivated since ww2.
 
#801416 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 14:22:30
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Lance, is freedom security and safety, or individual liberties?
 
#801419 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 15:04:58
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Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 14:22:30)
Lance, is freedom security and safety, or individual liberties?


security has nothing to do with freedom.

liberty is freedom, but violating other peoples rights is clearly individual rights
 
#801420 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 15:10:34
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Quote (blind_chief @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 07:58:12)
Quote (hippie @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 23:24:19)
poor sgull can't even rant without intellectual wannabes trying to ram ''logic'' down his throat and telling him he's wrong

you can't just dislike something apparently


sgull never even responds to legitimate discussion. hes a child. but he knows it.
evan is a moron because he actually thinks he is responding with logic, even though everyone knows he is an idiot.


sgull is just following the chart, he is what i call a feeler. his stance on unions won't change unless his core values do. logic or no logic, nothing will make him budge. he knows this and uses it to lightly troll.

Quote (lobb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 08:51:33)
its a political jab in a political topic oh the rapier wit this lad possesses

but really go out and get drunk, blow shit up

like our forefathers would have wanted


look at you being condescending and acting like nobody has social lives. you're like a mother telling her kids to get off the fucking computer and go play outside.

very subtle lobb, BUT YOU ARE clearly BETTER THAN ME.

Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 15:04:58)
security has nothing to do with freedom.


just stop
 
#801422 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 15:33:44
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Quote (hippie @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 15:10:34)
Quote (blind_chief @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 07:58:12)
Quote (hippie @ Sun - Jul 3 2011 - 23:24:19)
poor sgull can't even rant without intellectual wannabes trying to ram ''logic'' down his throat and telling him he's wrong

you can't just dislike something apparently


sgull never even responds to legitimate discussion. hes a child. but he knows it.
evan is a moron because he actually thinks he is responding with logic, even though everyone knows he is an idiot.


sgull is just following the chart, he is what i call a feeler. his stance on unions won't change unless his core values do. logic or no logic, nothing will make him budge. he knows this and uses it to lightly troll.

Quote (lobb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 08:51:33)
its a political jab in a political topic oh the rapier wit this lad possesses

but really go out and get drunk, blow shit up

like our forefathers would have wanted


look at you being condescending and acting like nobody has social lives. you're like a mother telling her kids to get off the fucking computer and go play outside.

very subtle lobb, BUT YOU ARE clearly BETTER THAN ME.

Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 15:04:58)
security has nothing to do with freedom.


just stop


Trollin is fun eh?
 
#801423 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 15:53:29
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Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:04:58)
Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 14:22:30)
Lance, is freedom security and safety, or individual liberties?


security has nothing to do with freedom.

liberty is freedom, but violating other peoples rights is clearly individual rights


that's just bullshit rhetoric that doesn't mean anything, get down to the core bro
 
#801424 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 15:56:50
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Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 15:53:29)
Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:04:58)
Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 14:22:30)
Lance, is freedom security and safety, or individual liberties?


security has nothing to do with freedom.

liberty is freedom, but violating other peoples rights is clearly individual rights


that's just bullshit rhetoric that doesn't mean anything, get down to the core bro


Pretty sure you are trolling.

Sacrificing your own freedom for security is fundamentally retarded.

There's no fucking reason why the state should legislate marriage at all.

There's also no reason why the state/federal government should have the power to override established rights and bypass due process.
 
#801426 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:04:27
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"liberty is freedom" is the most mindless retarded thing I've ever heard, and ive been here for 5 years
 
#801428 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:16:08
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Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 14:04:27)
"liberty is freedom" is the most mindless retarded thing I've ever heard, and ive been here for 5 years


lol
 
#801429 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:18:49
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Nice man.
 
#801430 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:22:45
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Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 15:56:50)
Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 15:53:29)
Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:04:58)
Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 14:22:30)
Lance, is freedom security and safety, or individual liberties?


security has nothing to do with freedom.

liberty is freedom, but violating other peoples rights is clearly individual rights


that's just bullshit rhetoric that doesn't mean anything, get down to the core bro


Pretty sure you are trolling.

Sacrificing your own freedom for security is fundamentally retarded.

There's no fucking reason why the state should legislate marriage at all.

There's also no reason why the state/federal government should have the power to override established rights and bypass due process.


anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a ''troll''. you're a very insecure person that has no honest stance/belief on anything. you just spew out bullshit rhetoric, as hedonism said, that you hear from news sources and dance around the issue to look like you know what you're talking about. you can easily see this because you always try to relate the discussion to current events instead of just talking generally.

sgull is the only one in this toilet that has stated a true belief and he stands by it, based on his life experiences

 
#801431 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:23:14
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Quote (blind_chief @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:16:08)
Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 14:04:27)
"liberty is freedom" is the most mindless retarded thing I've ever heard, and ive been here for 5 years


lol


 
#801432 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:27:07
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Quote (hippie @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:22:45)
Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 15:56:50)
Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 15:53:29)
Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:04:58)
Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 14:22:30)
Lance, is freedom security and safety, or individual liberties?


security has nothing to do with freedom.

liberty is freedom, but violating other peoples rights is clearly individual rights


that's just bullshit rhetoric that doesn't mean anything, get down to the core bro


Pretty sure you are trolling.

Sacrificing your own freedom for security is fundamentally retarded.

There's no fucking reason why the state should legislate marriage at all.

There's also no reason why the state/federal government should have the power to override established rights and bypass due process.


anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a ''troll''. you're a very insecure person that has no honest stance/belief on anything. you just spew out bullshit rhetoric, as hedonism said, that you hear from news sources and dance around the issue to look like you know what you're talking about. you can easily see this because you always try to relate the discussion to current events instead of just talking generally.

sgull is the only one in this toilet that has stated a true belief and he stands by it, based on his life experiences


Yeah because I talk about current events all the time. Point out more than 3 or more occasions where I talk about current events in relation to politics and I'll believe you.

And hedo is trolling. And ad hominem attacks really win you this argument. Yeah great job, you accomplished a lot.

And basing your entire viewpoints upon your own experiences is something called anecdotal evidence, which is flawed if you base everything on it because it's different in other places.

You need to try harder if you want to make my insecure ass go jump off the george washington bridge.
 
#801436 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:32:21
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ITT hippie is slurping on all 7.5 inches of my penis
 
#801437 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:45:00
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ad hominem != personal attack

god damn just when i thought "liberty is freedom" couldn't be topped...
 
#801438 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:49:50
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Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:27:07)
Quote (hippie @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:22:45)
Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 15:56:50)
Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 15:53:29)
Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:04:58)
Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 14:22:30)
Lance, is freedom security and safety, or individual liberties?


security has nothing to do with freedom.

liberty is freedom, but violating other peoples rights is clearly individual rights


that's just bullshit rhetoric that doesn't mean anything, get down to the core bro


Pretty sure you are trolling.

Sacrificing your own freedom for security is fundamentally retarded.

There's no fucking reason why the state should legislate marriage at all.

There's also no reason why the state/federal government should have the power to override established rights and bypass due process.


anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a ''troll''. you're a very insecure person that has no honest stance/belief on anything. you just spew out bullshit rhetoric, as hedonism said, that you hear from news sources and dance around the issue to look like you know what you're talking about. you can easily see this because you always try to relate the discussion to current events instead of just talking generally.

sgull is the only one in this toilet that has stated a true belief and he stands by it, based on his life experiences


Yeah because I talk about current events all the time. Point out more than 3 or more occasions where I talk about current events in relation to politics and I'll believe you.

And hedo is trolling. And ad hominem attacks really win you this argument. Yeah great job, you accomplished a lot.

And basing your entire viewpoints upon your own experiences is something called anecdotal evidence, which is flawed if you base everything on it because it's different in other places.

You need to try harder if you want to make my insecure ass go jump off the george washington bridge.


Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 13:25:47)
because fucknut retards think the sanctity of marriage is more important than citizens of the united states getting equal freedom.


Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 13:25:47)
I look around and see everyone trying to make sure that people who pose no threats to society don't get their rights and it makes me sick.


Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:04:58)
There's no fucking reason why the state should legislate marriage at all.


your only honest belief is basically boiled down to gay equality, and you try to reference it in all of your poops.

hedonism isn't trolling, he's just picking at your brain to see if there is anything worth digging up

Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:27:07)
And basing your entire viewpoints upon your own experiences is something called anecdotal evidence, which is flawed if you base everything on it because it's different in other places.


you whipped out the phrases ad hominem and anecdotal evidence! i iose, you're too smart man! you know so much about logic!

please stop trying so hard.
 
#801439 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:52:18
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he learns his debate vocab from reading njaguar's poops in PaRD
 
#801440 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:56:39
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id like to make a blanket statement based off of my lifes experiences.

anyone who is a republican is actually afraid of the world and wants to make sure we never actually evolve as a society. they are generally less educated and more prone to believing propaganda. they only seek out thoughts and ideas that fit their viewpoints, which reinforces their viewpoint. they only oppose government when they cant profit off of it.

its just how i feel man.
 
#801441 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:57:09
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Quote (hippie @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:49:50)
Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:27:07)
Quote (hippie @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:22:45)
Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 15:56:50)
Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 15:53:29)
Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:04:58)
Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 14:22:30)
Lance, is freedom security and safety, or individual liberties?


security has nothing to do with freedom.

liberty is freedom, but violating other peoples rights is clearly individual rights


that's just bullshit rhetoric that doesn't mean anything, get down to the core bro


Pretty sure you are trolling.

Sacrificing your own freedom for security is fundamentally retarded.

There's no fucking reason why the state should legislate marriage at all.

There's also no reason why the state/federal government should have the power to override established rights and bypass due process.


anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a ''troll''. you're a very insecure person that has no honest stance/belief on anything. you just spew out bullshit rhetoric, as hedonism said, that you hear from news sources and dance around the issue to look like you know what you're talking about. you can easily see this because you always try to relate the discussion to current events instead of just talking generally.

sgull is the only one in this toilet that has stated a true belief and he stands by it, based on his life experiences


Yeah because I talk about current events all the time. Point out more than 3 or more occasions where I talk about current events in relation to politics and I'll believe you.

And hedo is trolling. And ad hominem attacks really win you this argument. Yeah great job, you accomplished a lot.

And basing your entire viewpoints upon your own experiences is something called anecdotal evidence, which is flawed if you base everything on it because it's different in other places.

You need to try harder if you want to make my insecure ass go jump off the george washington bridge.


Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 13:25:47)
because fucknut retards think the sanctity of marriage is more important than citizens of the united states getting equal freedom.


Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 13:25:47)
I look around and see everyone trying to make sure that people who pose no threats to society don't get their rights and it makes me sick.


Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:04:58)
There's no fucking reason why the state should legislate marriage at all.


your only honest belief is basically boiled down to gay equality, and you try to reference it in all of your poops.

hedonism isn't trolling, he's just picking at your brain to see if there is anything worth digging up

Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:27:07)
And basing your entire viewpoints upon your own experiences is something called anecdotal evidence, which is flawed if you base everything on it because it's different in other places.


you whipped out the phrases ad hominem and anecdotal evidence! i iose, you're too smart man! you know so much about logic!

please stop trying so hard.


Those are poops about trends/ideas associated with the idea of freedom/liberty or whatever the fuck you want to call it.

Current events are very specific.

I am really trying over here man.

 
#801442 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:57:44
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Quote (hedonism @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:52:18)
he learns his debate vocab from reading njaguar's poops in PaRD


Nice troll statement.
 
#801443 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 17:05:37
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Quote (blind_chief @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 17:56:39)
id like to make a blanket statement based off of my lifes experiences.

anyone who is a republican is actually afraid of the world and wants to make sure we never actually evolve as a society.  they are generally less educated and more prone to believing propaganda.  they only seek out thoughts and ideas that fit their viewpoints, which reinforces their viewpoint.  they only oppose government when they cant profit off of it.

its just how i feel man.


you ever discuss blanket statements based off of life experiences?

...you ever discuss blanket statements based off of life experiences...on weeedd????
 
#801444 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 17:08:56
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Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:57:09)
Those are poops about trends/ideas associated with the idea of freedom/liberty or whatever the fuck you want to call it.

Current events are very specific.

I am really trying over here man.


the bold only reenforces my point that you have no idea what you're saying

you think i'm an idiot? when you think libery/freedom the first thing that popped into your head is obviously gay marriage and gay freedom, which is current events, which is referenced in the 3 quotes i showed you.

is it really that hard for you to admit?

i'm done with you then
 
#801446 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 17:13:35
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Quote (hippie @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 17:08:56)
Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 16:57:09)
Those are poops about trends/ideas associated with the idea of freedom/liberty or whatever the fuck you want to call it.

Current events are very specific.

I am really trying over here man.


the bold only reenforces my point that you have no idea what you're saying

you think i'm an idiot? when you think libery/freedom the first thing that popped into your head is obviously gay marriage and gay freedom, which is current events, which is referenced in the 3 quotes i showed you.

is it really that hard for you to admit?

i'm done with you then


Never called you an idiot, so you are putting words in my mouth.

And the gay equality thing is just a statement I used as an example for how fucked up things really are.

You came in here trying to get reactions out of people.

So no one is going to take anything you say seriously and no one takes anything seriously from anyone over here to begin with.

clearly sure why you think everything is so serious.

Everything pooped in here is just subjective chatter about peoples political views and trolling and acting cool.
 
#801447 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 17:14:15
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Gay people wanting to get married is just too gay. It's retarded.
 
#801466 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 18:55:39
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Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 10:29:46)
We haven't had a war that wasn't entirely politically motivated since ww2.


we haven't had a war that wasn't entirely politically motivated since ever

shut up
 
#801469 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 19:04:31
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Quote (lobb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 18:55:39)
Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 10:29:46)
We haven't had a war that wasn't entirely politically motivated since ww2.


we haven't had a war that wasn't entirely politically motivated since ever

shut up


LOLOLOL
 
#801476 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 19:41:13
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Quote (bubbachunk @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 19:04:31)
Quote (lobb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 18:55:39)
Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 10:29:46)
We haven't had a war that wasn't entirely politically motivated since ww2.


we haven't had a war that wasn't entirely politically motivated since ever

shut up


LOLOLOL


LOLOLOL

you shut up too
 
#801478 | Mon - Jul 4 2011 - 19:47:06
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whoever pages this is gay
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