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Archived | Views: 1951 | Replies: 45 | Started 15 years, 1 month ago
 
#626579 | Wed - Oct 28 2009 - 23:55:02
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Quote (Landsoul)
Okay there's a lot of garbage mechanics being thrown around. I'll lay out a few things straight for you. I did a bunch of configuring and testing in my spreadsheet using a 900 resilience and variable armor targets and proper PvP gear and glyphs.

ArP is better than STR on anything above 6k armor. Most classes have more than that. including priests with inner fire. So ArP is better under the cap since you can always gem beyond the str/ArP inflection point even with full mostly resi gear.

For Just single target DPS and top end gear, sword and axe perform similarly, and going Sword-STR does not outperform Sword-ArP in any way. Axe outperforms Swords by less than 1% in overall damage when having 100% dps uptime single target. Axe also has more unmitigatable damage because you can't dodge or parry crits. You can dodge or parry sword spec's. Sword specs can also crit, which is another good bonus.


Pros with axe:
Crits can't be dodged or parried
Deep wounds damage unaffected by armor
Crits don't eat up SS charges
benefits more the overall damage of bladestorm and SS
more reliable trauma and blood frenzy uptime
More effective on high armor targets


Pros with Sword:
more effective when your specialization ICD is being cooled down repeatedly by kiting or CC
Chance to roflpwn your target with double crits
More effective on low armor targets

The final ruling:
-Swords is much more effective when soloing or single targetting due to the cooling down of the ICD between your on-target uptime. It also has a higher chance of killing someone in a lucky burst.
-Axes is more reliable consistent damage, and also is more beneficial for unmitigatable damage and AoE effects. If you want to have high damage on multiple targets or bleed someone down, then Axe is the way to go.
-Trinket cap can be achieved with a combination of full resi gear and a few PvE pieces, so Mace spec is not needed. Also axe/sword is equivalent to mace with full arp gemming and pve gear on high armor targets.

Figure out which playstyle best suits you and I guarantee you won't be dissapointed in choosing the right weapon given my analysis. You can't spreadsheet your way through a goddamn arena match it won't get you anywhere. You have to think outside the box and lay out all the possibilities, which there are hundreds of. Analyzing all those hundreds of possibilities using napkin math is not going to get you anywhere in deciding which spec to choose.
 
#626584 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 00:24:35
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"So ArP is better under the cap since you can always gem beyond the str/ArP inflection point even with full mostly resi gear"

does not say what the inflection point is, nor does it say if you gem and still fall below that point if it is better. only says its better against all targets. but i think this assumes that you are meeting the inflection point with gems.

as always, that inflection point is the most important point in the str/arp conversation.
 
#626586 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 00:40:57
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Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 01:24:35)
"So ArP is better under the cap since you can always gem beyond the str/ArP inflection point even with full mostly resi gear"

does not say what the inflection point is, nor does it say if you gem and still fall below that point if it is better.  only says its better against all targets.  but i think this assumes that you are meeting the inflection point with gems.

as always, that inflection point is the most important point in the str/arp conversation.


pvp gear === you arent over the inflection point
still not understanding why you think "what the cap is" matters
 
#626616 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 08:51:36
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because he said it, and since you quoted him, you should care
 
#626619 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 09:15:22
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so if someone tells you that hamburgers taste good unless you eat too many of them

in order for you to go eat a hamburger, you need to know the max amount of hamburgers you can eat

and in order for me to quote someones recommendation that hamburgers taste good, i need to know the limit for amount i can eat before they stop tasting good
 
#626632 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 09:36:50
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john, ive read more than you can imagine about arp and str. even in pvp, it is not an equal ratio between them 2, it changes the more you have. at zero arp, str is better. you have misread his comment. the most important part of the quote assumes you understand that there is a point where arp becomes more beneficial than str, and he is speaking as if you can get to that point through gems.

 
#626657 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 10:10:50
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arp is better than str on a target under 6k armor with 900 resilience, in all situations, end of story

thats a direct quote from the person that creates all the amazing spreadsheets that are the basis for everything you have read

 
#626658 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 10:12:35
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thats not what it says john, and i quoted the important part
 
#626659 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 10:13:27
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anything taken from elitistjerks assumes you are taking into the account the fundamentals
 
#626660 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 10:14:31
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what fundamentals
you are not getting remotely close to the arp/str inflection point in resilience gear, end of story
 
#626701 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 10:56:32
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I have to agree with John on this one.
 
#626715 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 11:49:17
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Quote (randomtask @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 08:14:31)
what fundamentals
you are not getting remotely close to the arp/str inflection point in resilience gear, end of story


first, slow your roll. you dont have to be all high and mighty with me. im not some random on wow that you treat like shit cuz they wiped a raid once.

second, what is the inflection point, with a trinket. since the trinket is assumed because without it you cant?
ill tell you it was 40%, the nerf was about a 12% change, though that does not mean the inflection point is a full 12% change. ive seen some napkin math on it and its about half the change. im sitting fully gemmed at 30%, 10 for bs. thats pretty close brah.

do you understand that starting at zero passive arp and no arp trinket that there is no way arp is better than str? the math proves it if you go find the arp/str chat in the rogue forum (i think it was there).

if you dont know that people on elitistjerks assume you understand things like hit cap, "inflection points" then whats the point? they dont explain for the laymen.
 
#626719 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 11:52:08
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Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 09:49:17)
first, slow your roll.  you dont have to be all high and mighty with me.  im not some random on wow that you treat like shit cuz they wiped a raid once.


in a more passive tone, we are friends so lets discuss min/max shit like friends?
 
#626721 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 11:52:59
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Reroll a caster IMO
you don't have to worry about any of this shit
 
#626723 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 11:53:19
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Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:49:17)
do you understand that starting at zero passive arp and no arp trinket that there is no way arp is better than str?  the math proves it if you go find the arp/str chat in the rogue forum (i think it was there). 


Quote (Landsoul)
ArP is better under the cap
 
#626725 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 11:53:46
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Quote (boblong11 @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:52:59)
Reroll a caster IMO
you don't have to worry about any of this shit


"oh this item has more spell power, OK replacing current item with this"
 
#626726 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 11:54:24
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i have no arp trinket
i have no arp gear
i have arp gems
so do thousands of gladiator warriors
landsoul posted that we are correct
 
#626729 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 11:55:24
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Quote (randomtask @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 09:53:19)
Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:49:17)
do you understand that starting at zero passive arp and no arp trinket that there is no way arp is better than str?  the math proves it if you go find the arp/str chat in the rogue forum (i think it was there). 


Quote (Landsoul)
ArP is better under the cap


quote the whole sentance
 
#626735 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 11:57:15
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1500 strength and 1.4% armor pen >>>>>>>> 1520 strength and 0% armor pen
 
#626738 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 11:58:36
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Quote (boblong11 @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 11:53:46)
Quote (boblong11 @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:52:59)
Reroll a caster IMO
you don't have to worry about any of this shit


"oh this item has more spell power, OK replacing current item with this"


 
#626739 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:00:03
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ArP > Haste gear for Unholy DK's in 3.3 (means I don't have to regear; woot)
ArP > Haste gear for Unholy DK's in 3.3 (means I don't have to regear; woot)
ArP > Haste gear for Unholy DK's in 3.3 (means I don't have to regear; woot)
ArP > Haste gear for Unholy DK's in 3.3 (means I don't have to regear; woot)
ArP > Haste gear for Unholy DK's in 3.3 (means I don't have to regear; woot)
ArP > Haste gear for Unholy DK's in 3.3 (means I don't have to regear; woot)
ArP > Haste gear for Unholy DK's in 3.3 (means I don't have to regear; woot)
ArP > Haste gear for Unholy DK's in 3.3 (means I don't have to regear; woot)
ArP > Haste gear for Unholy DK's in 3.3 (means I don't have to regear; woot)
ArP > Haste gear for Unholy DK's in 3.3 (means I don't have to regear; woot)
ArP > Haste gear for Unholy DK's in 3.3 (means I don't have to regear; woot)
ArP > Haste gear for Unholy DK's in 3.3 (means I don't have to regear; woot)

This post has been edited by MoS. on Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:00:29
 
#626741 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:02:31
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Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:55:24)
Quote (randomtask @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 09:53:19)
Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:49:17)
do you understand that starting at zero passive arp and no arp trinket that there is no way arp is better than str?  the math proves it if you go find the arp/str chat in the rogue forum (i think it was there). 


Quote (Landsoul)
ArP is better under the cap


quote the whole sentance


show me a set of resilience gear to get you more than 35% without using mace spec
 
#626742 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:03:03
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Quote (randomtask @ Wed - Oct 28 2009 - 23:55:02)
Quote (Landsoul)
ArP is better than STR on anything above 6k armor.


I know that I'm not a Warrior and don't know anything about Hit caps and ArP / Strength inflection points, as a DK I don't worry about gear as long as it is purple and I can mash my buttons as fast as possible, so as a complete retard, that's the only valuable information I found in that post.
 
#626744 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:04:36
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Quote (MoS. @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:58:36)
Quote (boblong11 @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 11:53:46)
Quote (boblong11 @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:52:59)
Reroll a caster IMO
you don't have to worry about any of this shit


"oh this item has more spell power, OK replacing current item with this"


higher ilvl = better
if you other gear doesnt work, make it work
maximize ilvl
 
#626746 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:04:44
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Quote (randomtask @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 10:02:31)
Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:55:24)
Quote (randomtask @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 09:53:19)
Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:49:17)
do you understand that starting at zero passive arp and no arp trinket that there is no way arp is better than str?  the math proves it if you go find the arp/str chat in the rogue forum (i think it was there). 


Quote (Landsoul)
ArP is better under the cap


quote the whole sentance


show me a set of resilience gear to get you more than 35% without using mace spec


who said i have full resilience gear? wernt you the one saying warriors dont use full resilience gear?
 
#626749 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:06:02
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Quote (MoS. @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 10:03:03)
Quote (randomtask @ Wed - Oct 28 2009 - 23:55:02)
Quote (Landsoul)
ArP is better than STR on anything above 6k armor.


I know that I'm not a Warrior and don't know anything about Hit caps and ArP / Strength inflection points, as a DK I don't worry about gear as long as it is purple and I can mash my buttons as fast as possible, so as a complete retard, that's the only valuable information I found in that post.


Quote (Landsoul)
ArP is better than STR on anything above 6k armor. Most classes have more than that. including priests with inner fire. So ArP is better under the cap since you can always gem beyond the str/ArP inflection point even with full mostly resi gear.
 
#626751 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:06:08
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Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:04:44)
Quote (randomtask @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 10:02:31)
Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:55:24)
Quote (randomtask @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 09:53:19)
Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:49:17)
do you understand that starting at zero passive arp and no arp trinket that there is no way arp is better than str?  the math proves it if you go find the arp/str chat in the rogue forum (i think it was there). 


Quote (Landsoul)
ArP is better under the cap


quote the whole sentance


show me a set of resilience gear to get you more than 35% without using mace spec


who said i have full resilience gear? wernt you the one saying warriors dont use full resilience gear?


I did hear him say you would still "proelbay" use 2pT9 bonus.
 
#626752 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:06:38
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just give me the link to that thread so i can get the full context of his comments and not a standalone sentence that apparently is the final word
 
#626754 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:06:48
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Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 13:04:44)
Quote (randomtask @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 10:02:31)
Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:55:24)
Quote (randomtask @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 09:53:19)
Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:49:17)
do you understand that starting at zero passive arp and no arp trinket that there is no way arp is better than str?  the math proves it if you go find the arp/str chat in the rogue forum (i think it was there). 


Quote (Landsoul)
ArP is better under the cap


quote the whole sentance


show me a set of resilience gear to get you more than 35% without using mace spec


who said i have full resilience gear? wernt you the one saying warriors dont use full resilience gear?


so you dont have full resil gear, that even further values ARP until you are @ 734 rating
 
#626755 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:06:59
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ITT - BOBDAVE & I ARE WARLOCKS AND DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THIS FAGGOTRY, AS JOE STILL WON'T KILL SHIT GEMMING FOR ARMOR PENETRATION OR STRENGTH
 
#626758 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:07:40
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http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=120039

@ Nick, people with full current season gear have 1000 resilience with 2 piece 245 tier 9
 
#626761 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:10:43
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FUCK
HOW DOES I GET 1K RESILIENCE
 
#626764 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:12:39
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Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 13:10:43)
FUCK
HOW DOES I GET 1K RESILIENCE


http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.x...ark+Iron&n=Tenk

hes still not remotely close to the 100% with his grim toll procced

515 + 84 (t9) + 612 = 1211 = 86.5%
 
#626766 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:13:39
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Quote (randomtask @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:07:40)
http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=120039

@ Nick, people with full current season gear have 1000 resilience with 2 piece 245 tier 9


Not trying to argue that.

@ Joe, just be happy you don't have to fucking use Spell Penetration gems, faggot.
 
#626767 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:14:01
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Quote (randomtask @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 13:12:39)
Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 13:10:43)
FUCK
HOW DOES I GET 1K RESILIENCE


http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.x...ark+Iron&n=Tenk

hes still not remotely close to the 100% with his grim toll procced

515 + 84 (t9) + 612 = 1211 = 86.5%


grim toll lets him not use bloodshed band and a hit rating gem
 
#626768 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:14:40
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Quote (MoS. @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 13:13:39)
Quote (randomtask @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:07:40)
http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=120039

@ Nick, people with full current season gear have 1000 resilience with 2 piece 245 tier 9


Not trying to argue that.

@ Joe, just be happy you don't have to fucking use Spell Penetration gems, faggot.


not saying that you are arguing, just in response to your earlier post about tier 9 pve gear
 
#626769 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:15:06
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i need to get spell pen again on my priest, thanks for reminding me

dont feel like losing sp/resil 1:1 for spell pen, i think im going to wait and buy the off-hand and a pvp cloak before caring about spellpen, i dont have problems with fear resists much anyway, probably would get raped by spriest/lock in 2s though

This post has been edited by randomtask on Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:16:36
 
#626981 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 13:22:44
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might go to grim toll and get more resil as i upgrade
considering using my t9 chest and shoulders, and that way i can spend arena on gloves and legs
discuss?
 
#626991 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 13:28:35
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Quote (MoS. @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:06:59)
ITT - BOBDAVE & I ARE WARLOCKS AND DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THIS FAGGOTRY, AS JOE STILL WON'T KILL SHIT GEMMING FOR ARMOR PENETRATION OR STRENGTH


 
#627000 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 13:32:15
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Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 11:22:44)
might go to grim toll and get more resil as i upgrade
considering using my t9 chest and shoulders, and that way i can spend arena on gloves and legs
discuss?


was toying around with this last night, it will be the cheapest and easiest way to get me geared up. but i lose the intercept cd (:() and i need to replace thunderous rampage
 
#627060 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 16:45:35
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Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 14:22:44)
might go to grim toll and get more resil as i upgrade
considering using my t9 chest and shoulders, and that way i can spend arena on gloves and legs
discuss?


chest and shoulders is what most people do
donno about spending arena points on gloves and legs due to they drop in voa, but if you dont feel like waiting for the things to never drop, go ahead and purchase
 
#627061 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 16:47:16
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Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 14:32:15)
Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 11:22:44)
might go to grim toll and get more resil as i upgrade
considering using my t9 chest and shoulders, and that way i can spend arena on gloves and legs
discuss?


was toying around with this last night, it will be the cheapest and easiest way to get me geared up. but i lose the intercept cd (:() and i need to replace thunderous rampage


triumph badges = replace thunderous rampage and chest
 
#627068 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 17:07:59
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triumph = helm
vault/arena points gloves and legs

and if i go t9 then chest and shoulders are the best bet. i have to fucking regem to balance my gems out now since i had thrown my jc gems in my gloves cuz it was my first furious
 
#627069 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 17:08:55
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i would put JC gems in the shittiest stuff you have, and put actual expensive/good gems in the best gear
gotta think of jc only gems as cheaper alternatives
 
#627417 | Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 23:31:18
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thanks for the reminder i need approx 40 more spellpen
 
#627423 | Fri - Oct 30 2009 - 00:09:11
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Quote (MoS. @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 13:28:35)
Quote (MoS. @ Thu - Oct 29 2009 - 12:06:59)
ITT - BOBDAVE & I ARE WARLOCKS AND DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THIS FAGGOTRY, AS JOE STILL WON'T KILL SHIT GEMMING FOR ARMOR PENETRATION OR STRENGTH


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