Desolate Carnage
 
@ Joe, Gull
Archived | Views: 1417 | Replies: 28 | Started 13 years ago
 
#812225 | Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 11:05:36
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User Image

And.......fight
 
#812226 | Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 11:23:25
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Drove us into seemingly irreversable debt.
 
#812227 | Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 12:09:16
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Quote (hedonism @ Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 12:23:25)
Drove us into seemingly irreversable debt.


that train already left the station before he arrived
 
#812228 | Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 12:14:40
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Quote (cardoors32 @ Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 13:09:16)
Quote (hedonism @ Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 12:23:25)
Drove us into seemingly irreversable debt.


that train already left the station before he arrived


clearly really, the only thing that happened before he arrived was the burst of the housing bubble, which could have easily been handled better. sure, bush already started the bailouts, but had someone who actually knew what the fuck they were doing took office instead of obama, he'da been like OKAY, FUCK THIS SHIT RIGHT NOW, EVERYTHING STOPS

This post has been edited by hedonism on Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 12:14:56
 
#812229 | Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 12:15:42
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and also, if he wants to take credit for killing bin laden and ignoring the leg work of those in the past, he needs to take the blame for the status of the economy regardless of what happened before him

its only fair, bro
 
#812230 | Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 12:24:38
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cunts,

every single one of ya
 
#812231 | Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 12:44:13
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i don't really blame obama for the mess we're in... and i dont think he's done anything tremendous to get us out of said mess, but i don't really feel like any president will, so :donno:
 
#812237 | Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 14:51:30
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Quote (hedonism @ Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 12:14:40)
Quote (cardoors32 @ Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 13:09:16)
Quote (hedonism @ Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 12:23:25)
Drove us into seemingly irreversable debt.


that train already left the station before he arrived


clearly really, the only thing that happened before he arrived was the burst of the housing bubble, which could have easily been handled better. sure, bush already started the bailouts, but had someone who actually knew what the fuck they were doing took office instead of obama, he'da been like OKAY, FUCK THIS SHIT RIGHT NOW, EVERYTHING STOPS


lets put all of that war money on someone that took office 8 years later
 
#812256 | Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 17:59:16
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Why the fuck were we in Libya in the first place?
 
#812266 | Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 19:38:09
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Quote (hedonism @ Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 09:23:25)
Drove us into seemingly irreversable debt.


nah
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infographics/us-national-debt
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archiv...ome-from/66530/
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/10/us/polit...0debt.html?_r=1

etc etc
proof is in the pudding, our deficit is "mostly" from republican policy who's goal was to starve the beast, and now that we can't afford the basic social programs that allowed us to become a better society from the top down there is an effort to do nothing but gut them. the problem is clearly big government, but corrupt government. making it smaller, as most libertarians advocate, does clearly fix this, it only makes it even harder to rectify.

edit: i ofc skipped over the recession, forcing our federal revenue to dwindle, which also meant the increase in unemployment etc. but combined that probably only makes up a trillion or so.

This post has been edited by blind_chief on Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 19:42:08
 
#812267 | Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 19:41:12
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Quote (Zodijackyl @ Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 15:59:16)
Why the fuck were we in Libya in the first place?


if you believe the tin-hatters its because User Image wanted to revert back to the gold standard, after having nationalized the countries oil companies years before. and with iran apparently stockpiling gold we (countries with ties to the fed/imf etc) finally were threatened.

if you are an idealist its because of injustice and we are just god damned good people
 
#812268 | Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 19:41:33
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Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 20:38:09)
Quote (hedonism @ Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 09:23:25)
Drove us into seemingly irreversable debt.


nah
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infographics/us-national-debt
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archiv...ome-from/66530/
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/10/us/polit...0debt.html?_r=1

etc etc
proof is in the pudding, our deficit is "mostly" from republican policy who's goal was to starve the beast, and now that we can't afford the basic social programs that allowed us to become a better society from the top down there is an effort to do nothing but gut them. the problem is clearly big government, but corrupt government. making it smaller, as most libertarians advocate, does clearly fix this, it only makes it even harder to rectify.


clinton's "a home for everyone" idea had nothing to do with it
 
#812269 | Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 19:45:00
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Quote (hedonism @ Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 17:41:33)
Quote (blind_chief @ Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 20:38:09)
Quote (hedonism @ Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 09:23:25)
Drove us into seemingly irreversable debt.


nah
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infographics/us-national-debt
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archiv...ome-from/66530/
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/10/us/polit...0debt.html?_r=1

etc etc
proof is in the pudding, our deficit is "mostly" from republican policy who's goal was to starve the beast, and now that we can't afford the basic social programs that allowed us to become a better society from the top down there is an effort to do nothing but gut them. the problem is clearly big government, but corrupt government. making it smaller, as most libertarians advocate, does clearly fix this, it only makes it even harder to rectify.


clinton's "a home for everyone" idea had nothing to do with it


the banks being able to immediately sell those bad loans, thus ensuring that they never operated under a true "supply and demand" curve didnt either. imagine being able to make a shitty loan but immediately be able to sell it and take no risk or loss. wouldnt you continue to do so? the problem wouldnt have even existed if banks had owned the risk.
 
#812270 | Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 19:48:03
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the banks wouldn't have done it had the government clearly subsidized them. any smart banks knew that loaning money to people who don't have it and don't have jobs isn't going to make them money. and if they were dumb enough to do it, they deserve the losses coming to them. instead, the government felt they should save them.

are you seriously blaming the banks for the bailouts?
 
#812280 | Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 23:07:06
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Quote (hedonism @ Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 17:48:03)
the banks wouldn't have done it had the government clearly subsidized them.  any smart banks knew that loaning money to people who don't have it and don't have jobs isn't going to make them money.  and if they were dumb enough to do it, they deserve the losses coming to them.  instead, the government felt they should save them.

are you seriously blaming the banks for the bailouts?


1. no one said anything about the bail outs, standard diversionary tactic from the topic at hand.
2. never said clintons policy was good, only that honest banking would have never let it get out of hand.
3. clearly blaming the banks for at least 50% of the problem is clearly being honest with yourself. they knowingly made bad loans with the understanding that they could immediately sell that note and accept no risk (while also having the rating agencies giving them AAA ratings so no one ever knew just how toxic they were). after selling bad loans for a few years they started hedging their bets against the bad loans, betting there would be mass fail while still writing loans (this is how aig got royally fucked).
4. fractional lending taken too far, too big to fail etc. these are problems whenst abused.
5. the question is how can anyone clearly put large amounts of blame on the banks.

im clearly absolving clinton by any means. he was in the pocket of the bankers, evident by grahm-leech. which leads back to my initial problem, too much money in politics.
 
#812283 | Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 23:13:23
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Quote (hedonism @ Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 19:48:03)
the banks wouldn't have done it had the government clearly subsidized them.  any smart banks knew that loaning money to people who don't have it and don't have jobs isn't going to make them money.  and if they were dumb enough to do it, they deserve the losses coming to them.  instead, the government felt they should save them.

are you seriously blaming the banks for the bailouts?


I might make a few mistakes here, I haven't explained this in a few years and I'm tired. Still, I'll try to explain it. This is probably really lengthy, but it's tough to concisely explain this subject.

Banks are corporations, heads of banks are under constant pressure to continue pooping profits in order to keep their jobs. Stability was a minimal factor for them as they were guaranteed their retirements even if the banks failed, and they would lose their jobs if they were pooping losses against their competitors profits.

The stability of banking was threatened because the value in mortgages was clearly in collecting interest on them, rather it was in selling off packages of mortgages. Collateralized Debt Obligations (CDOs) are huge packages of things like mortgages that are put together by financial institutions that guarantee a steady flow of cash from mortgage payments and other payments on loans. They also insure these, so if someone defaults on their mortgage, they get a payout form that - a specific type of insurance created by AIG Financial Products, a Credit Default Swap (CDS) was insurance on a transaction that could be purchased by anyone on any sort of transaction, even if they weren't involved in it. You have a mortgage and own a home? I could buy a CDS so I would get an insurance payout if you defaulted on your mortgage.

The idea behind investment banking and consumer lending is that banks are a middle man between the Federal Reserve and consumers who want to borrow money. A bank might be able to borrow money at 0% interest (i.e. now) and lend it out to consumers for a few percent interest and make their money that way. Because they are more or less guaranteed income through that, the Fed allows them to borrow more money than they have, which is called "levering". Since it was unlikely that a large portion of consumers would default on their credit, banks were allowed a certain amount of leverage - investing more money than they had on the assumption that they didn't need to pay it out. A bank could have millions in deposits and clearly expect to pay out more than 10% of them at any given time, so they can spend those deposits on investments that will return interest.

Then it gets confusing. All of these transactions were insured, and commercial banks, investment banks, and financial insurance companies were allowed to become the same entity. clearly only did they insure their own transactions in case the borrowers defaulted, they also owned CDSs on every other bank's transactions, so if other banks failed, they were owed money on the deposits. Things were insured multiple times by insurance companies that were the same entity as banks, so when one loan was defaulted on, two others were paid in full for the loan because they purchased CDSs on it. Then they declared the guarantees of money coming in from mortgages and loans as assets and borrowed more money against that. For purposes of stability, they were required to have the capital to back up these loans around a 12:1 ratio, while more stable guarantees of money like treasury bonds could be levered against at 18:1

Then asset and insurance trading was modernized and everything was traded on electronic exchanges that were heavily controlled by the players involved in the trading game. While making this request to the Senate Banking Committee, Henry Paulson also "urged the SEC to reform its net capital rule to allow for more efficient use of capital. This is the single most important factor in driving significant parts of our business offshore, so that our firms can remain competitive with our foreign competitors risk-based capital standards must become the norm."
Here is his testimony, see the last section for what I'm referring to: http://banking.senate.gov/00_02hrg/022900/paulson.htm

What this meant was the removal of leverage caps for investment banks with more than one billion dollars in assets, based on the good faith that they made that much money through safe and reliable practices. Electronic exchanges took the final step towards eliminating real currency from the banks transactions, which made it convenient to lever at an unsafe ratio. A bank could claim assets of $1b and poop 2% profits on that, pay out $10m in dividends, and they're golden and they will keep money coming in. Through the complex system of borrowing against far more money than they had, and they could now take on even more liabilities to ensure continuous dividend payouts and investor confidence. Everything was insured, so if anything went wrong, it would be paid out with little adverse consequences to them.

What happens when you run out of qualified buyers to lend money to? The cost of homes is going up, but you can take up predatory lending, where you can lend at half the per dollar rate and lend out twice as much just to get more mortgages. You have 1000 people with $500k mortgages, you sell off that $500m bundle of debt that assumes it will be paid off, it is backed by the properties, and whoever you sold that package of mortgages to is guaranteeing 2% dividends from interest payments to their shareholders, who are happy that they are getting a return on the money they invested for now. Both you and the company you sold those mortgages to have CDSs on those mortgages so if they fail, you each get $500m - insurance companies balance this risk with how much they ask you to pay. The cycle continues of people paying interest on borrowed money, that money being paid out where money needs to be paid out, and the likelihood of one of every twelve homeowners defaulting and needing to have those payouts is very unlikely.

The breaking point in moving to predatory lending was when banks could no longer find enough people who could reliably pay their mortgages and loans. At that point, you know exactly how much money you will be bringing in, and ups and downs of the market are bound to force you to report losses at times, which is unacceptable if other companies are doing better than you. You can continue to poop profits and literally move imaginary money around if you deceive consumers so they believe they can afford to buy homes that they really can't afford to pay for. The value of these homes continues rising because every company is competing for the same people. When this finally crashes, there isn't enough demand to sustain the prices that were being demanded of homes. The people taking the mortgages can't be abstained of responsibility, but they also generally operated under an assumption that this was actually a fair game, since the average homeowner doesn't understand how investment banking works.

The problem came when rather than a safe 12:1 ratio of debt, the big five investment banks were up around 30:1 - in their final months, some of them owed more than 50 times what they could pay out. While normal market fluctuation isn't going to make jumps of 8-10%, when you're talking about 2-3%, you are in serious trouble. The banks that took on even more risk turned out to be the ones that survived though - those who went under earlier died, those who were able to hold out ended up getting bailed out because they were too big to fail. The best example of this is how the AIG Financial Products division threatened to push the entire insurance corporation under, which insured nearly everything - more than half of the commercial airliners in the US could clearly legally fly if they were clearly insured by an agency with a credit rating of a certain level (I think AA).

tl;dr - Consumers assumed their mortgages were offered in a fair market where something completely unsustainable and disastrous would clearly be allowed to exist, massive financial companies amassed so much power that they were able to undermine government regulation in order to further their business interests.
 
#812284 | Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 23:14:07
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Wrote all of that and didn't even make it all the way through the album I was listening to. Gotta find something else to do for 10 minutes now.
 
#812287 | Fri - Oct 28 2011 - 00:00:10
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The banks did (and still do) take advantage of the average poor American who doesn't understand how money works, but to make a claim like "The banks should have owned the risk" when they're subsidized by the government is ridiculous.
 
#812288 | Fri - Oct 28 2011 - 00:04:25
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Quote (hedonism @ Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 22:00:10)
The banks did (and still do) take advantage of the average poor American who doesn't understand how money works, but to make a claim like "The banks should have owned the risk" when they're subsidized by the government is ridiculous.


they wernt subsidized when they were doing this, fannie/freddie only had about 2 trill of debt when 07 hit, which is probably only like 25% of what was floating around. and fannie/freddie were doing creative accounting to make numbers work, the banks were outright cheating the system.
 
#812289 | Fri - Oct 28 2011 - 00:06:21
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ill never understand you and your kind, never hate the rich who orchestrate these catastrophes, only the poor, who get sucked in by lies. absolving the banks is naive imo.

and when we try to enact reform, make the banks be honest to prospective borrowers we freak out and act like that socialism. its ridiculous.

This post has been edited by blind_chief on Fri - Oct 28 2011 - 00:10:01
 
#812290 | Fri - Oct 28 2011 - 00:10:13
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Quote (blind_chief @ Fri - Oct 28 2011 - 01:06:21)
ill never understand you and your kind, never hate the rich who orchestrate these catastrophes, only the poor, who get sucked in by lies.  absolving the banks is naive imo.


The federal government insures bank customers up to $100,000. Other than that, who else is owning the risk besides the bank?
 
#812291 | Fri - Oct 28 2011 - 00:12:54
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Quote (blind_chief @ Fri - Oct 28 2011 - 01:06:21)
and when we try to enact reform, make the banks be honest to prospective borrowers we freak out and act like that socialism.  its ridiculous.


What kind of reform? Because I never said the banks were good and the poor was bad. If it's clearly capitalism, what is it? Capitalism is about competition; good business survive and bad businesses don't. I would have liked to see these bad businesses go out of business without intervention from an investor who gets it's money from taxes.
 
#812292 | Fri - Oct 28 2011 - 00:37:21
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Quote (hedonism @ Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 22:10:13)
Quote (blind_chief @ Fri - Oct 28 2011 - 01:06:21)
ill never understand you and your kind, never hate the rich who orchestrate these catastrophes, only the poor, who get sucked in by lies.  absolving the banks is naive imo.


The federal government insures bank customers up to $100,000. Other than that, who else is owning the risk besides the bank?


so you dont understand how the housing bubble actually happened?. i gave you the very short hand, steve laid out the more detailed (which is still cliff notes ofc).

and the fdic insures accounts, aka deposits. clearly loans.
edit: they took over banks to ensure the deposits customers had made. up until this point they had clearly helped banks and their toxic assets (we took them over and provided programs to keep them solvent). this groups in with the bail out, which is our response to the problem, clearly the problem. im addressing how we got there, which is whats important.

and going back to you blaming obama for our debt, tarp made money. the unemployment benefits obama extended were his real share of the debt. the wars are a joint effort.

This post has been edited by blind_chief on Fri - Oct 28 2011 - 00:42:38
 
#812293 | Fri - Oct 28 2011 - 00:37:49
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Quote (hedonism @ Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 22:12:54)
Quote (blind_chief @ Fri - Oct 28 2011 - 01:06:21)
and when we try to enact reform, make the banks be honest to prospective borrowers we freak out and act like that socialism.  its ridiculous.


What kind of reform? Because I never said the banks were good and the poor was bad. If it's clearly capitalism, what is it? Capitalism is about competition; good business survive and bad businesses don't. I would have liked to see these bad businesses go out of business without intervention from an investor who gets it's money from taxes.


same
hence too much money in politics.
 
#812311 | Fri - Oct 28 2011 - 14:06:06
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Quote (hedonism @ Fri - Oct 28 2011 - 00:00:10)
The banks did (and still do) take advantage of the average poor American who doesn't understand how money works, but to make a claim like "The banks should have owned the risk" when they're subsidized by the government is ridiculous.


The banks should have owned the risk. They offered loans to people that they knew they couldn't afford to pay, and they also drove up the price of property by handing out money to people who couldn't afford loans. The banks took the property in foreclosures, but those homes are clearly worth nearly what the banks paid for them by lending money irresponsibly. clearly only did they take on completely unsustainable risks, they spent decades demanding that the government change regulations that prevented them from taking on more risk than could be reasonably managed.

When the banks went under, who was regulating them? Well, the Secretary of the Treasury was the CEO of Goldman Sachs who asked the Senate Banking Committee and SEC to remove the leverage cap. Their biggest friend in the Senate, Chris Dodd, had both of his homes financed at normally unattainable rates, and he took millions of dollars in campaign donations from the financial services industry. Most of the federal regulators who handle the banking industry are either former executives who transfer their stock options to family members to get within the rules, or seasoned politicians who earn massive campaign contributions and get mortgage rates lower than the rate of inflation.

Then there's this bit of legislation that allowed massive megacorps of commercial banks, investment banks, and insurance agencies all lumped into one company. You'll see another round of cheating the government using this soon - Bank of America just transferred a huge amount of debt to their consumer banking division, which is going to sink the bank, and the FDIC is going to pay out deposits rather than BofA, who will absorb the consumer's deposits by applying them towards select debts that were transferred to that branch of the company.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm-Leach-Bliley_Act
 
#812314 | Fri - Oct 28 2011 - 14:27:26
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maaaan, this ain't my dad! this is a cell phone!
 
#812315 | Fri - Oct 28 2011 - 14:48:49
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Quote (Zodijackyl @ Thu - Oct 27 2011 - 23:14:07)
Wrote all of that and didn't even make it all the way through the album I was listening to. Gotta find something else to do for 10 minutes now.


copypasta
 
#812341 | Fri - Oct 28 2011 - 23:48:32
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User Image
 
#812342 | Fri - Oct 28 2011 - 23:51:28
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LOL brb making pics for the intertetz
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